Rethinking Philanthropy: Strengthening Business and Community ft. John Bromley (Charitable Impact)

What happens when business thinking collides with philanthropy? 

Today’s guest brings a fresh perspective on how generosity can be reimagined in modern life. With decades of experience at the intersection of innovation, impact, and purpose-driven growth, John Bromley shares why resilience in business isn’t just about profits—it’s also about how we give back. 

As the founder and CEO of Charitable Impact, the online giving platform to develop, navigate, and carry out charitable goals, John is a two-time TEDx speaker, a Business in Vancouver Forty Under 40 winner, a soccer coach, and a father of two kids.

Motivated to make giving more accessible and participatory, he founded Charitable Impact, which has proudly facilitated more than $1.4 billion in donations and is helping tens of thousands of individuals discover their innate generosity, pursue their vision for change, and transform their giving habits.

On this episode, we’ll explore the future of philanthropy, what it means to build more resilient communities, and how a new wave of giving can spark lasting change. 

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[Host: Lauren Scott ] Welcome back to The Resilience Report.

This is going to be a really fresh take for you, our listeners, because while most of our episodes have focused on sustainability within businesses, we all know that impact doesn't stop at the boardroom, that it really goes beyond and reaches deeply into our communities. And today, we have somebody who has rich professional experience in this space to explain a little bit more how we can really rethink our philanthropic efforts collectively. So with that, welcome to the show, John.

[Guest: John Bromley] Thank you, Lauren. I'm really, happy to be here.

On the topic of philanthropy, I think for a lot of us, it can go one of two directions. It can either feel maybe a little bit inaccessible for some, and then I think for others, it might also feel like, the model that's currently in existence might feel a little bit stale. So, how are you approaching this concept of Charitable Impact more broadly with your work?

Well, maybe to start with the model that might be stale, and feel free to add commentary there, what I hear a lot is where donors sort of have this feeling that they're a wallet. They're asked for money, and… and they're… they're just like, oh, what do I do now? Do I react to it? You know, I say yes. Do I say… and then do I… did I want to say yes? If I say no, do… how does that make me feel about myself, let alone how I might be perceived by others? So, I refer to that… that… as the fundraising paradigm. I personally believe that fundraising is critically important, but that the fundraising paradigm is stale.

And so, what I'm doing to approach that is sort of trying to… playing a role in what I would call the donor-centered world, where you… where you bring philanthropy back down to the donor, you center around the donor, and you give them the tools to create the impact, and the education, ideally, to create the impact that they want to create.

So, asks… charities asking you for money is still… still plays a role in that, but is the donor sort of feeling empowered? Are they feeling proactive? Are they going in a direction that they want to go that serves their personal interests and their lifestyle of choice?

And that's the kind of paradigm that I'm playing a role in today with Charitable Impact, using a tool that's called a donor advice fund.

Maybe we can click into a little bit at the top, just so our listeners can understand a little bit better. I do think you're right that a lot of us will donate, and I've heard you speak to this in the past, of we donate because our friend is doing a charity run, but we're not really sure where that goes, and then there's kind of weird follow-ups in the mail afterwards, but we don't necessarily feel ultimately connected, or at least empowered in that situation. So what does that model look like that you're trying to rethink?

Well, I mean, there's nothing wrong with supporting your friend doing a charity run, right? I think the question on that is, like, is there any dialogue or interaction with your friend to understand why they're doing it, why they want your support, and things like that? Because that's where the meaning comes from, in my experience, right?

So, you know, in that world, we… you know, what I would want to say is, I'd say, like, the person doing the run or the bike ride, you know, are they… do they have their own tool to go and solicit their friends in a way that allows them to, you know, protect their friends from future marketing and other things like that, if they want to?

And, you know, the tool that we're working on at Charitable Impact, this Donor Advice Fund tool, is fundamentally about giving the tools to the individual or the organization. It could be a company, it could be, you know, a group of people, and saying, okay, here's the tools you need to practice philanthropy.

And now you can go about using those tools the way you want to. Right, so at Charitable Impact, we advocate for getting involved with philanthropy, taking action, you know, it's not just intention that changes the world, you know, it's actual action. But we're not into saying, well, here's the charity you should give to, and here's the most important cause, because this cause is more important than that cause. You know, we can't say that because we don't know that.

And in this work, have you seen that there are any, maybe, common myths or misconceptions when it comes to philanthropy that you would just like to debunk right at the top of this recording?

How much time do we have, Lauren?

I mean, there's… there's a whole bunch. One of them… Maybe I'll expand on one that I kind of already mentioned in a nuanced way, and go straight at another one. So the other one is that charities are ineffective.

I hear, as what I would, in sales language, call an objection to charitable giving is, well, you know, charities, they just don't create any change in the world. And I think that's completely false. Charities are the same as any other type of organization, you know, any other business. So call it, like, a ticket, like a sector like restaurants. Is every restaurant good? First of all, objectively, the answer is no. Not every restaurant is good. So, not every charity is good. There's gonna be some bad charities out there. But more… but that… that's the few and far between, where you're kind of like, that's objectively a good charity, and that's objectively a bad charity. In most cases, it's a subjective analysis.

Right? Like, you like Indian food, I might not like Indian food, so I think that the Indian restaurants aren't good, and you think they are good, right? And so charity's much more like that, right? You know, so… so this idea that charities are ineffective is… is… I think it's rooted in lack of education and lots of… lack of experience that donors have to be able to recognize what effective charities are and what it actually means to be an effective charity.

But I think that's one of these myths that I'd like to bust. It's very, very rare for me to meet a highly engaged donor who says charities are generally ineffective. And when they say that, they usually go introspective to themselves, and they go, why is it that I keep bumping into or choosing, quote, ineffective charities to give my money to?

Non-engaged donors, in my experience, often go to the ineffective… or charities are ineffective objection, almost as a reason to write off why they're not giving money at all, and it's almost more of an excuse, in my experience, than it is an actual, true complaint, and the reason I say that is because when you ask people, and you go, well, tell me about you know, all these… this experience they have with charities just across the board being ineffective, tell me more about that. They start to stumble on their words, they don't actually have much to report, etc, etc.

The other myth that I raised earlier that I'd just like to sort of debunk is this idea… it's not quite a myth, but this idea that, like, if we have the intention of being good people, that that's what makes the difference in the world. It's action that actually creates the change, right? So I also meet all sorts of people who really, intend on being engaged in community, and want to be… genuinely feels like they want to be engaged, but they're not. Now, why they're not, those leads to more complicated and interesting conversations, but this myth that, like, intending to, be in community and, you know, engage with community is a lot different than actually doing it. You actually, unfortunately, it's like exercise, you gotta do it.

Absolutely, and taking action definitely is harder, I think, than maybe just doomscrolling and getting concerned, but not necessarily taking any action. So, I completely would agree with you.

I can imagine another area that you have to work through, because you do work at this interesting intersection of impact, sustainability, technology. I come from the tech space, and I know that the second you're talking about data, especially anything that's financial data, there is a lot of concern around trust. So, how have you navigated that? Because I'd imagine that's maybe not a barrier to entry, but it's an area of concern when you're dealing with a donor community, because you're dealing with personal information, you're dealing with financial information, and then that's translating to how they impact?

Yeah, I mean, that's a… that's an interesting subject. Just to go back to your myth question is… my response to it with ineffective charities, that's the part of trust where I find the most materiality in the charity sector, in terms of, like, you know… and there's some truth to… it's not, like, so many myths, they're rooted in truth, right? It's not that everyone who says charities are ineffective or wrong, it's almost certainly rooted in some version of truth and some version of personal experience.

But, you know, across the board, it just doesn't necessarily apply, or in my view, it doesn't apply. So, you know, how do you get people to the point where they almost trust themselves to engage with their time, talent, and treasure in a way where they're giving it away? And that's the level of trust that I think services like ours can really play a big role. Because I think a lot of trust you know, is rooted in getting the person to trust themselves. I mean, you know, so I'm not… I'm happy to talk about, like, well, let's trust the outsiders, or can we trust Charitable Impact and things like that, but can you trust yourself with the decision of allocating money out to charities in a way that makes you feel like you're not just throwing you know, good money away to be spent poorly by someone else, right? And my experience with that is that when you get people into things that they are actually really interested in, and that they know something about, they have a more agency and experience saying what is actually a good, you know, good programs, you know, in whatever they know about this area of, like, let's say it's climate change, and then they get over the trust hurdles more quickly, because they can identify charities that are doing good programmatic work, they understand it, even if they're not hardcore pro, you know, enough to go, yeah, I really support that, and I'm willing to trust. Because I know the organization I work at, people trust us all the time, and we're not here, you know, to try to do anything bad for people, right? And so they're… and then they sort of suspend that… that… that… and they pass it on to someone else and go, well, then they're probably trying to do their best as well. And the trust problem starts to resolve itself.

That's the area in the charity sector where I think the most work needs to go into, and it's actually educating donors, and I guess kind of also educating charities at how to dialogue and communicate with donors to develop that trust over time.

I'm thinking this draws a parallel to the psychology of investing. There's a lot of people who never really get started in investing because they don't really trust themselves to be educated enough to do so, or to be able to jump in there. So that absolutely makes sense from that psychology piece. 

You did mention earlier, too, that sometimes it's individual donors, sometimes it's more at the company level. Having looked at even just the past 5 years, so 2020 to now, it feels like that landscape has changed so much when it comes to corporate sustainability. Do you see any trends as to where you think we're going in terms of companies getting involved, in terms of broader impact, call it over the next 5 years or so, and if it helps to maybe look at how it has changed over those past 5 years, by all means, use that as well.

I'll tell you where I think things are gonna continue to trend, and I think this is a long-standing trend, but a slow-moving one also, is that the trend, particularly in corporate philanthropy, is gonna move towards the empowerment of the customer and or the employee, and away from the company dictating what charities are going to be supported and why. Right? So, take a couple examples. In an employee workplace giving program, it's shifting from, here's the charity that the boss says that we're gonna support, everyone rally around and give to this.

To, hey, employees, thanks a lot, we're gonna give you money for you to give away, either in the form of matching, or just by allocating some money for you, so you can give it to the charity of your choice. Now, back to the trust thing, how does that overcome trust? Instead of everyone having to trust the boss who's so good at choosing charities because they're good at whatever the company is, which makes no sense, you know, they start to go in and go, well. What charities do I trust, and am I going to trust myself to allocate this money? 

And then the other part is that the companies start to see that, in my experience, they start to see more value from giving charitable dollars, because the value to the corporation in giving charity, especially if you're being sort of true to finance, okay? So, less true to the spirit and the heart of everything, and more true to finances. How do you return value to the shareholder by giving charity? Well, it's by increasing the value of employees who feel, you know, better about the culture of the company and feel more engaged when they come to work.

And on the customer side, same type of story, different language, you know, feeling… have customers who feel like they're shopping with a company that actually cares about, you know, them, and maybe the communities they live in, and how would you ever achieve that? Well, one way is to transfer the charitable dollars to the customer for them to give away.

By way of example, just… sorry to go on, but you know when you go to the… you know, you're shopping, you go to the till, and they're like, hey, you want to put an extra dollar in towards this random charity that you hear about when you shop there? Like, the future of that, in my view, is it's gonna move away from that, and to, thanks for shopping with us, here's a dollar from the company that we're gonna give to you to give to any charity of your choice.

Instead of the person going through 85,000 registered cherries and trying to… that the till trying to choose, it's going to go into an account for them that they can then give away, and some form of data may come back, probably an… should be anonymized data, comes back to the to the company, saying, hey, that dollar that was, you know, allocated to customer XYZ, went to, child poverty. This other dollar went to youth education, this other dollar went to climate change. Isn't it interesting that two-thirds of your customers care about children?

I think that's a brilliant use of data, and certainly as we… especially if you lean into the anonymous side of things, of just kind of pooling that information back to the company. Do you feel like if you could wave your magic wand to rethink the way a business is set up so that they're kind of inserting it at the beginning of a company, because we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who are listening. Is there any way that you would recommend that they think about doing that? Is it really steering clear from saying, hey, I'm the founder, this is a cause I believe in, but really trying to listen to their community as to what best resonates?

First of all, as a entrepreneur myself, I can tell you I've never met a magic wand, and I have looked. So there's maybe no magic wand, but I'm working at achieving what I want the magic wand to achieve for me, first of all. So that's my entrepreneurial kind of lens there. But I love the question. 

You know, the answer I want to give to entrepreneurs is… is not meant to sound counterintuitive, but might sound counterintuitive. It's to kind of think selfishly about the company and what it can achieve by being benevolent. And the reason for that is maybe rooted in my background in corporate finance, you know, prior to me engaging with the charity sector, which I've, you know, which was where I started my career in corporate finance, but it's also because, you know, it's so hard to choose a charity and be right about that. Particularly with a group of people, because a group of people, you're gonna have… I mean, just think of religion for a second. It's like, oh, well, we have Christians and Jews and Muslims and atheists, all that work for us, so take that group of people, how are you gonna find everyone… how are you going to get everyone to agree on a charity?

Right? So, to be counterintuitive, what I mean by counterintuitive, instead of just always thinking about what impact can we create, and thinking about, like, let's create change in the world. Think about how change is created. And if you're a company, you know, that wants to use charity as part of your corporate culture, which I really want to advocate people to do.

You want to think around, how can I deploy my program so that it benefits the company in a way that… and now, why? It's not about selfishness, it's so that the company continues to do it. When you… if you work for Charitable Impact, we match your donations up to $100 a month. You can use that money to give to any registered charity of your choice when you're ready to do that. We do that because we… A, we believe it as a company, so I… me, as the founder, believe in that, and secondly, my experience is that people enjoy that as a program.

I mean, they also like that we match their RRSP dollars, for what it's worth. Right? But they like it as a program, so, like, that's another reason to stay at Charitable Impact. Hey, happy birthday, here's some charitable dollars for you to give away. So, how do you use charity to develop your corporate culture, whether that's with customers or with employees? That's what I want entrepreneurs to think about.

In part because I think that's what sustains you in the giving sector more easily than just choosing a charity and taking some money that you feel like you should probably use in a different way to give to charity. And secondly, because entrepreneurs don't need a lot of education to think that way. Right? They need to have some education to what the optionality is, but then they know themselves, and they know what they're trying to do from a corporate culture standpoint, generally speaking, in my experience. And so they can go about making decisions inside an area that they're comfortable. So much of charity we're uncomfortable about, because like every other area of the world, it takes experience to get better at something, to get to the point where you're totally comfortable with it. But entrepreneurs know what they're trying to build culturally. So I… my message, in short, with all that as context, is to entrepreneurs to think culturally about their company and what type of brand they want with their employees and or with their customers, and to build a charity around… their charity strategy around that.

And as a plug, Charitable Impact has a lot of thoughts on that, and we love engaging with people to help them develop their strategy inside their corporation, for example, with those types of ideas in mind.

In knowing the current landscape, you and I are both based in Canada, and I think probably more broadly in North America, we're feeling some ebbs and flows when it comes to companies wanting to engage in social and environmental impact. Do you feel like that approach, then, of really thinking it through from the beginning is what will help a company to notwithstanding, but weather the storm of whatever political landscape that they find themselves, that it feels more authentic to who they are?

I think so, and also, you know, when you do that and you recognize that there's time and talent and money, or treasure, that can be given away. You can build that culture into your organization early, so when you might not have a lot of money or treasure to give away, you can still go, well, like, how are we gonna use the talent and time of our team members to, you know, do a little bit of community engagement, and what's it going to be around?

You know, and why are we gonna do it that way, right? So it's not like every day, you know, you take half the day and you go and volunteer, but like, I don't know, once a month or once a quarter, are we gonna do a team-building experience around something that's actually engaging us in community? Maybe something tied to an employee. Oh, here's an employee that, you know, whatever, loves the environment, and ends up picking up garbage every time they're at the park, you know, eating lunch with us. Isn't that interesting that they do that, and then you find out it's because they do that on the weekends, picking up on shore… picking up a shoreline. You now have this employee who you get to know better, and everyone goes and picks up garbage with them along the riverbank one day. 

So, the reason why building it in early is important is it starts to get into the ethos and the culture of the company. And one of the mistakes we often make is go, oh, well, charity's all about money, so I can't actually give charity until I'm rich. Right? And that's a big mistake. There's another myth. Right?

Think about sport. That's not how we go about sport. You don't just all of a sudden decide you're gonna be a professional basketball player. You know, years, decades before that, you decide that you're athletic, you're gonna get off the couch, you're gonna, you know, put time in, you join teams, you try, you fail, and maybe you have the small chance of actually making it there. In other words, it takes work. And becoming a charitable company, creating a community-engaged company in an authentic way. Unfortunately, it's no different. Takes some time and effort to get there.

On the topic of journey, you've certainly had a very interesting professional journey to get to where you are today. You mentioned just a little bit earlier that you have a background more in that traditional finance space.

What did that journey look like, to come over to where you are today, and then are there pieces… I mean, obviously, there's the financial overlap, but are there pieces that you learned in that chapter of your life that you can lean into, into your work right now with Charitable Impact?

Well, if I understand you to be in Montreal, just so you know, I was in Montreal when I had my, financial experience days, so, love that city. You know, I studied commerce in university, and I mean, not to get too personal, but I met this woman who's now my wife, you know, just as I was graduating, and my goal was, because she was going to be in Montreal, was to stay in Montreal.

It was as simple as that, and I went, well, how am I gonna afford to stay here? I'm gonna have to get a job, and  I've just studied this stuff, I like commerce, I like finance in particular, and I was lucky enough to get employed in that. I stayed in that. You know, what I learned, despite loving it, and if I started my career again, I would go back and do the same type of thing. I would just buy Bitcoin along the way. Well, actually, I'm not kidding. But, you know, I would go… I would go back and do the same thing. What I learned at my job was incredible. Like, there's no way I would have the financial literacy I have if I hadn't done that, and you… and financial literacy is really, really useful, when you're doing the type of work we do, you know, focusing on donors and helping them give money away.

But what I really learned that was most valuable, you know, in hindsight, as a, you know, in my 40s now, is that that job wasn't for me. I learned that that role, that culture, the type of work I was doing was for me to learn from, and but not for me to spend my life doing. And I was just so blessed that I had the courage and mentors around me and… or loving parents and other friends who kind of were like, you know, John, you say you love your job, but you're not as happy as you used to be. You think there's a relationship between that and your job?

And when I finally admitted that the answer was yes, you know, I moved on, and I don't say that today anymore. You know, maybe I'm unhappy for other reasons, but not because of my work. So, what I really learned, that I want other people to take something from is that, you know. It's awesome to experience things that ultimately aren't for you, and sometimes there's more value in experiencing it because it's not for you than experiencing it as it is for you.

Those are words to live by, most certainly. And in doing that transition, you were mentioning that now you're feeling, you know, your happy days within work, and I'm sure a lot of that is also hard work, too. Have you had any moments with all of this success. So, Charitable Impact has facilitated over a billion dollars worth of impact. Within that, was there ever a moment where you were able to kind of look back and, like, really say, I had an impact? Like, what I'm doing is really changing the space, and really kind of that moment of recognizing where you have landed?

Yeah, the stories that I get the most joy from are when, you know, people talk to me or others at Charitable Impact, and share their joy from their own version of an aha moment, where they go, you know, I was this type of donor, or I wasn't a donor at all, but I wanted to be, and then I met Charitable Impact, or a product like ours, and it really empowered me to get going, and now I'm doing it regularly, and I'm loving it.

So, you know, we find those stories at all levels of wealth, and also at all different age groups. And, what I'm most passionate about, in that is, empowering, you know, average income Canadians. And, particularly young people.

Back to my basketball example, you're not gonna become a basketball star without playing basketball. Well, you're not gonna become an impactful donor without, you know, engaging in it and learning, you know, making mistakes and… and figuring out what works for you and what doesn't work for you, so I really believe that education and building the sort of culture of it and the experience of it with kids at a younger age is just super important, particularly in a world where Canada's losing donors. There's less donors today than there were yesterday, and those of us who are still giving are giving a smaller percentage of our income.

And, you know, my view on that, without going too much, unless you're interested, is because people just aren't educated about giving. They don't know… they care to… about community, but they don't know how to go about impacting community, and that's, generally speaking, solved by education and exposure. So, that's something I'm personally really passionate about today.

Well, I would love to go into that a little bit, because I've certainly… I've sat on the board of directors of nonprofits, and certainly seen an aging demographic of the donor base, do you feel like that is something seen across the board? Is that - obviously, there is a shrinking population. For our listeners who are from outside of Canada. That is a reality that we're facing within the country.

But I think it goes beyond that, to your point. It sounds like it maybe is less familiar for a lot of the next generation coming out. I also think that the current economic situation might not lend itself to donate… to donating otherwise, so I would love your thoughts on that, because I have my one sub… I guess, subjective interpretation of it, but I would love your thoughts on that.

Yeah, it's a… it's a big topic, and it can get, you know, sort of complex and nuanced quite quickly, but high-level. On the one hand, I think the internet's great, because it exposes people to all sorts of you know, good and bad stuff, right? And let's say, you know, good stuff that we want to invest further into, and bad stuff that we want to correct.

But what it doesn't do, and I'm looking at this through the lens of my own kids, who are 12 and 14, so they're kind of, like, you know, on screens way too much, by the way. And what it doesn't do is it doesn't teach them anything about how to go about doing something to, you know put more wind behind the back of things we want in the world, and put more wind in the face of things we don't want. So that's where I would juxtap… when I would think about my parents' generation, you know, I… I… I just think that, like, charity was more a part of community. It was… it was… it was more an accepted and thing that more people did, you know? You know, my dad was a charity lawyer, he's one of the pioneers of charity law, and there was a time in his career where, like, they finally did the first million-dollar gift.

Generally speaking, so much, like, so… so much giving was just average-income people, you know, you know, giving some of their money away here and there along the way, because it was almost like a part of something you did. I think we've really lost that. Today, by the way, it's the exact opposite. The million-dollar donations are driving way, way, way, way, way too much of the sector, to the point where average-income people seem to go, well, let's just let the rich people take care of all those problems.

I think it's a problem of education and empowerment, just to go back to sport for a second, you know, and I'm sorry, but I grew up kind of that way, and so I go there, but let me just use this as an example. You know, you've got a kid, you want them to be active, you want them to get out of the house, whether they're athletic or not, you want them to… okay, so what do you do? With sport? You're kind of like, oh, like, first of all, there's a plethora of different sports you can choose from.

And there's a place you can send them, and when you send them there, there's other kids to learn from, there's some form of coach or babysitter who's gonna help, you know, nurture them and develop them a little bit, right? Where's that for charity? You don't get that in community. You don't get that at school.

And, you know, you do get that in religion, but fewer and fewer of us are participating in religion, and, and so, like, the real question becomes, like, for secular people, where do you actually learn that? And where does the exposure of, kind of, of getting experience doing it come from? And unfortunately, the answer, and I've really looked hard, is closer to nowhere than somewhere.

So, partly at Charitable Impact, we want to develop some of those programs, and say, oh, here's how you can participate in a charitable allowance program with your kids at home, and here's what it looks like. And part of it is to learn from where the giving's actually taking place, you know, by way of example.

It's no surprise if you've ever been to church, or to the synagogue, or to the mosque, or whatever, people who practice religion in Canada, it's also true in the United States, give four times more than non-religious people. And why is that? Is it that they're just nicer people? Well, no, I mean, maybe, but no. It's because they're exposed to giving in their, like, theological texts, and it's talked about by the pastor or whatever, right, the church leaders. People practice it so you see it in the community of people you're hanging out with, and then as a result, you kind of do it yourself, out of obligation or out of want to do it.

And so, you know, you see… so charity hasn't disappeared, it's just kind of shrunken down into these areas and pockets of society that actually truly value it, and not value it at the level of theory, value it at the level of practice.

That's so interesting, and it absolutely all makes sense. I really do think so much of it is modeling and what we can share, and if we do have those role models, whether it's a teacher, someone in your place of faith, a parent, that sort of thing, can definitely have a large impact.

for yourself, I mean, it certainly sounds like your own family ties, but have there been any mentors, or and people in their broader community that have helped, really keep you coming back to your work? I can certainly… working in the impact space can feel a little challenging sometimes, especially given the current climate. Are there any folks who have really helped you? And it might not even be somebody you know, but it has kind of served as that North Star for you over the years.

I think it's people who… that's a great… that's a wonderful question. I think it's people who… for me, it's, like, people who have this, like, authenticity to how they participate in charitable giving, almost to the extent where they don't even recognize it themselves.

Like, they're so, kind of, purely engaged with it that they… and regularly engage with it. It's just a part of who they are. Everyone can recognize it except themselves, unless you really stop them and push them on it. And those people really inspire me, and the reason why is because I… to kind of be cheesy for a second here, or human, I really do believe that we all have that potential.

Right? So, we might not all achieve our potential of that kind, but the human spirit of charity, that we are benevolent beings, that we're social beings who rely on others to take care of us, and therefore we should take care of other people, is, to me, a human truth. You know, and actually, at Charitable Impact, we root everything around three beliefs that I think are indisputable, in my view, and it's kind of like, if you don't believe these things, guys, like, don't work with us. 

The first is that… the first is that everyone has something that they care about changing in the world.

The second belief is that we all have something to give towards creating that change. Whether it's your time, your talent, and or your money. 

And the third belief is that when you give, when you participate in that, when you actually take action, when you give, you yourself get something in return. It's not just impacting the society, it's also impacting you. So, I believe those things, Charitable Impact believes those things, and when you spot… when I spot people in society who obviously, you have something that they care about, you know, creating change for in the world, or have something they care about creating change for in the world, do something about it, and they've just become this, like, authentic, lovely person.

I kind of go, gee, how do we, like, how do we create more of you? You know, and I get inspired at that level of, like, a designer, I get inspired at the level of kind of going, okay, how do we reverse engineer this type of person? And that's where the personal stories that lead people to become those types of people.

Are very, very interesting, and… It almost never has to do with I got rich, and then I became that person. It almost always has to do with how they were raised, what they experienced as a kid, good things and bad things that happened in their life, and then, if wealth ever becomes relevant, then the wealth is just, well, now I have more money to spend on it, or I retired and I have more time to spend on these things. So, I'm most keen on that authenticity person, who I'm able to spot now with some experience, and kind of go, how do we make more of you?

I've also heard you share that you believe that generosity is a skill that can be developed. I would love for you to dive into that, because I do think if, in just hearing that, sometimes I think, well, there's probably some people who are born on a spectrum of generosity, but I'm sure we have parents listening in, maybe leaders who are listening in, thinking, how do I help cultivate that? What are your thoughts on how to develop generosity?

Wow, Lauren, I could talk to you all day, so try to be succinct about it. So, I do believe generosity is innate.

So, let's call it this, to put it this way, generosity is nature. It's natural to us as humans. But what happens if you don't nurture nature? This is where I think schooling and sports is so good. Like, you can be, like, good with numbers, but if no one ever teaches you math, you're unlikely to become an engineer. You know, you can be creative and love narrative and story, but if no one ever teaches you to read or how to speak language, you'll never… you'll never know, you know, how to engage with a book, or listen to a book, or listen to a speech, right? You'll never be able to engage with content, and there's lots of research on this type of stuff. 

You might be able to, like, have the propensity to, like, run fast or shoot a basketball well, but if you never play basketball, you're just not going to be a basketball player. So that's the… that's the level of, you know, it's not rocket science, like, that's the level of which, like, generosity has to be developed. So, saying it differently, we all have this spirit of generosity that we're born with naturally as human beings, and I think it's reinforced through millennia of culture of taking care of others and being taken care of, right? It takes a village.

But you also have to learn how to do that. Right? Recognizing when, recognizing why, appreciating when, appreciating why. When I do this, it didn't work so well, but when I did that, it does… it did work better. So this is skill development. This is… this is experience-based, you know, skill development. And it's something like anything else in life. Like, you can learn math by sitting in a classroom, and that's helpful, but you also have to do the programs, or the challenges yourself, and then you have to apply it in your own in ways, and then when all those three things come together, you're a more wholesome learner, right? 

You mentioned modeling, super important. There's lots of different ways to develop responsibility, to develop social responsibility, to develop generosity, but it definitely, in my experience, has to be developed, it has to be seen as a skill that we try to get better at over time, and not just something that we can rely on naturally. But that's the exact same thing as health. The exact same thing as, like sport development, it's the exact same thing as learning math, or language, or cooking, or literally in that… so, in other words, charity's no different from anything else in life. I just don't know why people don't look at it that way.

Well, it absolutely makes sense, and I'm sure we have some listeners who are thinking, okay, I'm ready, I can recognize I have this spark within myself, I want to go explore a little bit more. Where do you typically guide people you're just, you know, crossing a dinner party, if they're interested in learning, just maybe first off interested in learning on how we can individually have an impact. Certainly, again, coming back to our primary listener base, which are more on that corporate side. Is there a first step that you typically drive people towards?

The first step I typically drive people towards is… Taking some form of action.

And then thinking about that. The reason I do that is because, unlike math and other, you know, or shooting a basketball or whatever, some of the examples we've gone through. There's not as… there's not as obvious a place to send someone to kind of learn about charitable giving. And that's too bad. Charitable Impact and others are working on that, I believe. I certainly know we are. So I really focus on the action.

Like, hey, well, cool conversation, why don't you just go and, like, oh, you care about, like, food security, and you have all these reasons why that's so interesting. Do you like gardening? Oh, no. But you like organization? Okay, just find a food, like, security charity, find, like, a food bank, for example, near you, and go and spend some time there.

And if you kind of hate it, then maybe think about the gardening thing and do food security a different way. Or if you like it but think that they're poor at doing it, make a decision, am I gonna spend more time with them and bring my skill set to help them improve in these areas? I think I'm poor, or am I just going to give up on this charity and go find another one that might do things better?

Right? So, so many of us have the skills, we have the time, the talent, and the treasure to participate in community. And so often we want to. Especially in theory, we have the intention to, because I believe of this… I believe of this… it's because of this sort of innate generosity that we have. But way too many of us fail to actually take that first step. 

And for the entrepreneurial crowd listening, You're kind of going “Wait a second, what is it that makes me an entrepreneur again?” It's taking that first step, right? It's not learning engineering and then, you know, sure, that's part of it. But it's actually taking the first step to start the company. And so that's true of so many things in life. I focus on that partly as an entrepreneur and partly as a pragmatic person. 

The last thing I'd say on that is, when you take the first step, it's so much easier. To start educating someone. Oh, tell me about volunteering at the food bank, what did you like? What didn't you like? Why didn't you like that? Why did you like that? And then these people start going, oh wow, I actually have a lot to add to this, and I have some things to learn. So, I'm gonna add some stuff, and I'm gonna feel good about it, and get some experience there, but then I'm also gonna learn all this stuff, and make myself a better person in that way. And this comes back to the richness of why we should be getting  involved with charitable giving and community engagement for reasons that go beyond impact, because it actually benefits ourselves. While we're helping other people and moving things forward, we're actually becoming richer, smarter, more experienced, ourselves.

And then there's certainly so many great resources that you've pulled together with your team at Charitable Impact. If our listeners wanted to learn more, would you direct them towards a specific area of your website, on your social channels? Where would be the best spot to go look?

Well, I'd say learning about us through our social channels would be, you know, a good way to engage with some of our content, get a sense of who we are, that… and we're on all the different social channels @wearecharitable.

And in terms of action, and a bit of a shameless plug, you know, the thing about coming to Charitable Impact's website, you can start your own giving account, you can start your own giving fund, right, your own donor-advised fund for free, in 30 seconds or less, if you have an email address, right? So, just kind of take that step.

You know, you don't have to add $1,000 to it, just… our smallest donation is $5. Add $5 to it off your credit card. You have $5 in your account, how are you gonna deploy it? Send a dollar to a charity, see if we actually get it there. Right? Find a charity that you would actually send a dollar to. So, these are the steps that I want people to take. Look, there's other donor-advised funds out there, you don't have to just use Charitable Impact. We are online, we have web-based tools, and we are accessible to everyone, regardless of how much money you give away.

But it's real… the guidance there is really to, like, start something in your life that you kind of manage and control with regard to your charitable giving, and then hold yourself accountable to doing it. And that's… that's what I want to see more people doing. Let me say one more thing on that.

My view today is that, and it's unfortunate, so only about… so only about 15% of Canadians, like, give charity and file a tax return, so measured a certain way, only about 15%, that's a pretty small number. It used to be 23%, and it's shrunk a lot over the past decade or two. 15, 16%. So, most of us, according to that number, most of us aren't involved in charity, and some of us opt in.

I'd love to see a world where we all opt in, and then for those of us who, like. Just really hate it, or, you know, conclude that all charities are ineffective - opt out. So that's one of those… that's why the action thing is so important. I just want people to opt in and try it. And if, you know, give it a shot, kind of like exercise or, you know, other, you know, music or other interests in your life, give it a real shot. And if you completely dislike it, you know, thank you for giving it a shot. It's fine. I'm not gonna tell you you have to be charitable.

Right? But what I find is that people are like, oh, you know, I didn't like that, and I didn't like that, but I did love this, and now I've got all these friends who are involved in that, and I feel great about the impact I'm creating, and you know, I'm learning a whole bunch of stuff, and gee, just like going for runs is become a part of me and my habits in life, so is this aspect of charitable giving, and it's just something that I choose. And so many people end up enjoying it. And that's what I want people to do. And obviously, when more of us are doing it and enjoying it, you're going to see more impact happen in society, because there's going to be more hearts, minds, and wallets contributing towards the change they want to see in the world.

That number is staggering. I never would have guessed that it's as low as 15%, so thank you for all that you're doing to even just create awareness around this. I think for those of us who maybe had that modeling earlier on, and are just kind of regularly engaging. We are maybe also siloed in our own thinking of not trying to reach out to our contacts to help educate them, because I think, if I'm hearing you correctly, it really does sound like we all have this opportunity to be compounders of just extending this movement beyond our immediate network.

100%.

I do want to thank you for your time, and I really do want to pick your brain on this last question, which we ask all of our guests, and I think you'll have a fresh approach to it, which is, what do you think it will take for businesses and leaders to be resilient going forward?

Wow. I mean, for me, the answer is… a real belief in the mission. It enables me to persist through all sorts of headwinds. … Of different varieties. So when the going gets tough, the tough get going, but why are you tough?

Why do you choose to be tough, I guess? I think it's… for me anyway, it's belief in the mission and the purpose of the company. I snarl a little bit, because people are kind of go, well, it's so easy when you're, like, a charity company, obviously you have a mission. I don't see it that way at all, like, I mean, it's… every company can and should actually have a purpose and a mission that's easy to articulate and easy for people to identify with and decide on their own whether they like it or not. And a true, authentic belief in that, I think creates all sorts of resiliency. It certainly has for me.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, John. I really appreciate what you're doing on a personal and a professional level, so thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for bringing the topic to your podcast, Lauren, and for your time. Nice to talk with you.